Logan (00:00):
Okay. Hello. My name is Logan Silvers and we are doing this interview and I am talking with...

Annabelle (00:06):
Annabelle Tuma. My pronouns are she/her. I am an AFAB person. I have always identified as a woman. It's not especially important to me that people are able to visually identify me as a woman all of the time for the purposes of this clothing.

Logan (00:28):
Of course, of course. So do you shop for clothing in retail clothing markets? And if so, what do you choose to shop from?

Annabelle (00:37):
Generally, I do not. I would say that if I'm buying from a retail clothing store, it's because I'm looking for something new, which means that I'm looking for something very high quality and durable. So I would tend more towards like I guess outdoor stores or military surplus places.

Logan (00:55):
So where do you mostly buy clothing from?

Annabelle (00:59):
If I'm looking for clothing, I only buy secondhand clothing, so I guess I would generally go to a thrift store or a marketplace that is for people to exchange used clothing.

Logan (01:11):
Is that the same for accessories, like shoes or jewelry or like hats or anything like that?

Annabelle (01:19):
I guess it theoretically would be, yes. Although my earrings, I tend to try to buy new when possible.

Logan (01:27):
Yeah. That does make sense. When shopping for clothing, do you shop for need or just because you want to?

Annabelle (01:34):
Need always.

Logan (01:36):
What would you say that you shop for the most often?

Annabelle (01:40):
Clothing-wise I guess it would usually be stuff that's fairly adaptable. So spring or fall clothing. I right now have realized that I don't really own a lot of summer clothing. So I guess I'm going to be doing that. I guess, most frequently it would be like shirts or pants, if that's helpful.

Logan (02:02):
Do you have a particular would you say category of fashion that you choose a lot of the time? This could be an aesthetic or just kind of like a general genre of things that you like to wear all the time?

Annabelle (02:16):
I try not to. I feel like when you're trying to appear as if you're something you end up limiting yourself and limiting what you really want to do. So I generally just kind of pick anything that I feel gravitated towards, which so far has tended to be I would say more traditional heavy metal and also just like practical... I'm very into practicality.

Logan (02:38):
Yeah. So when you dress, you dress for like comfort, like the ability like to wear or something like something that you would be comfortable in all day?

Annabelle (02:45):
Yeah, definitely. It's important to me that I'm very adaptable for any situation.

Logan (02:50):
Okay. When you say any situation, has there been like any kind of like crazy situation where having like a particular outfit really helped?

Annabelle (03:01):
Last year, I came back for hybrid learning and no one was back at all. There were like so few of us and I was looking for a place to eat lunch and I ended up eating under this bridge that you kind of had to like slide down like a mud hill for which I was not prepared for, but being dressed adaptively really helped me in that situation.

Logan (03:22):
How do you see masculinity presented in fashion?

Annabelle (03:26):
In fashion, I think that masculinity tends to be presented in a more traditional way than femininity. At least if you're going very far back, I feel like it's remained pretty consistently the same silhouette and probably dark colors and not... It hasn't become, I think, any less revealing in many situations. So I think that it's still quite traditional generally.

Logan (03:54):
So dark, traditional, and conservative, you would say is masculine?

Annabelle (03:59):
Oh, what I say is masculine?

Logan (04:00):
In fashion.

Annabelle (04:01):
Oh, in the way that fashion is being like sold to us.

Logan (04:04):
Sure.

Annabelle (04:05):
I would say that in a retail store. Yes. I think that masculine clothing still tend to be pretty traditional

Logan (04:11):
To bounce off of that because you seem that you had some kind of idea, how would you see masculinity in fashion if you were like in a dream scenario, what would you see?

Annabelle (04:22):
I think that in a dream scenario, clothing has absolutely no gender. So masculine clothing would really not be discernible from feminine clothing.

Logan (04:31):
Of course, of course. So how do you see as a counterpart, this is also one of the other questions femininity presented in fashion and retail stores today?

Annabelle (04:40):
I mean, in many ways it is still traditional. It's still traditionally I think skews towards what we think of as feminine, still pretty pastel when compared to masculine clothing. I think that it has gotten... Neck lines have gotten shorter. Hem lines have gotten higher. Whether or not that is female empowerment or female sexualization or whatever is the cause, I would say that it tends to be fairly traditional, but slightly more modern than masculine clothing.

Logan (05:15):
Would you say that femininity continues to be more modern with what is trending than masculine clothing because you see masculine clothing as like very traditional in retail stores?

Annabelle (05:28):
I think that the stereotype of women as kind of like frivolous and maybe obsessed with clothing and obsessed with trends is something that does enable women to indulge in what they want to wear more than men, which I think that people should be able to wear whatever they want as often as they want, as long as it's not to the detriment of the environment. I can't remember what the question was.

Logan (05:56):
So when it comes to retail trends, you would say that retail stores market the women and fem presenting people more than the masculine presenting people.

Annabelle (06:07):
Oh, yeah. I think that because there's the stereotype of women as being frivolous and kind of like prone to hopping on trends, stores definitely I think try to really update what they're selling very often obviously to sell more and to try to be in keeping with current trends. So I guess it changes often, but not really as a result of like favoritism towards women.

Logan (06:35):
In a more gender inclusive store, do you think that you would see gendered sections?

Annabelle (06:41):
No.

Logan (06:44):
Have you ever thought about, or have you ever seen any kind of stores where they had sessions that were either less gendered or there weren't any gendered sections at all? And if you have, do you remember your shopping experience in them? Because I know sometimes in thrift they don't divide by gender, but they divide by like these are t-shirts, these are jeans. And actually when it comes to jeans, I do think that they separate, but... Sorry, but I do think that they categorize a little bit less. Have you found that kind of shopping experience is easier for you or is it different? Any thoughts that you have on this general idea?

Annabelle (07:20):
Yeah, honestly, my only recent experiences with shopping for clothing have been either online or at thrift stores, then I do think that it makes it easier if you're just going through everything that's all together. Because I feel like biggest hurdles of people presenting as a certain gender, trying to find clothing marketed for a specific gender, I feel like it's sizing because if you're like an AMAB person, maybe you won't be able to find traditionally feminine clothing that is your size. So I feel like in a thrift store, when everything's all thrown together, it kind of allows you to like see just what you're working with at one given time and not have to like deal with these like weird organizational differences that make it difficult for you to find what you're looking for.

Logan (08:03):
Would you say sometimes that sizing can become an issue?

Annabelle (08:08):
I would say so. Not from my personal experience, but I can definitely... I think that is probably one of the last ways in which like it is very difficult to find obviously apart from like comfort and like societal expectations, just like if you're walking into a store trying to find clothing marketed towards a gender that you are not or don't identify with, then I think that... I'm an AFAB person and if I walked into like a very fancy men's suit place, they would not have anything in there that would hang on me the way that it was marketed to fit someone. And I think the reverse is true. I think that if like an AMAB person was trying to buy like a nice fancy, like cocktail dress, they might find it difficult. Obviously, they would find it societally difficult, but just as far as like actual like the way the clothes like work and are sized, I think that would still be quite difficult.

Logan (09:10):
I think that's a really awesome way of answering that question. Okay, let's talk more about that. And then we'll move into online shopping. So when someone who is not the gender of the targeted audience of a retail store walks into that gendered store, do you think that experience just walking in there even before trying anything on is harmful to them in any way, like internally?

Annabelle (09:35):
Obviously I can only speculate, but I would... Yeah, definitely. Obviously, depending on geographic location, depending on the views of the general area where they are, depending on the actual location of the store, obviously things happen to varying degrees. But yeah, I would think that especially an AMAB person trying to buy traditionally feminine clothing, just because of like the societal stigma against that. Not that it's any harder in the reverse, but I think that especially... There's obviously the weird preconceived notion that it's somehow like immoral or dangerous. So I think in that way it would be probably very difficult to go into, especially like a very fancy or like a place that hasn't had to confront that before. I think that they would probably encounter a lot of difficulty and judgment.

Logan (10:31):
I'd love to talk about that. When you see gender neutral clothing lines that are brought out by retail corporate companies, what do you most often see?

Annabelle (10:42):
I feel like I most often see very, very anonymous, very simple garments. I can't say that I've seen many of these lines, but I feel like when I see like unisex or gender neutral clothing, it's usually just like very anonymous.

Logan (10:59):
Would you say that they are more masculine, more feminine, or fully androgynous?

Annabelle (11:05):
I would say more masculine in the silhouette. Like I've never really seen like a gender neutral skirt or dress. You see like a gender neutral, like I don't know, like long sleeve t-shirt maybe. Maybe like gender neutral sweat pants, which I think are more traditionally masculine clothing.

Logan (11:26):
When you see gender neutral clothing, it's mostly dark and conservative and traditional?

Annabelle (11:30):
Yeah. Or it's like a hat, but I don't know.

Logan (11:35):
So if a clothing company were to launch a gender neutral line, do you think that would be difficult because clothing has no gender or would it be equally as feminine as it is masculine or would it be truly androgynous? When we're talking about gender inclusivity, is it a combination of two polar opposite styles of fashion or is it bridging of both? How would you find a gender neutral line of clothing?

Annabelle (12:06):
I think kind of all of the above. I think that the current state of gender neutral clothing as it is now is indeed gender neutral in that it doesn't contain many of the associations that we associate with gender, but I think that it would be really, really cool to have... Or not cool. I think that it would be really, really essential to people and their gender identities and their like comfort level, if gender neutral lines with multiple aspects that are considered gendered aspects of clothing were considered. I think that obviously at the heart of all of this is the fact that clothing is not gendered, but... Sorry. But corporate stores are a very, very long way off of admitting that and interacting with that idea. Corporate clothing companies and like retail box office stores still very, very much interact with gender and gender stereotypes and clothing. So I think that if a retail store were to do a gender neutral line, I think it would have to meld these two aspects because they're still so present in kind of corporate clothing and the corporate world definitely, but also like retail clothing.

Logan (13:27):
Would you say it would be more beneficial to launch a gender neutral line or to just make the stores more gender neutral themselves? So then all of it is gender neutral.

Annabelle (13:38):
Oh, the stores, the stores. Definitely. I think that a gender neutral line is like fairly non-essential apart from the fact that it would normalize gender neutral clothing in all aspects. But I think that could be easily accomplished by just making their stores not separated by gender and not making their clothing and sizing separated by gender. I think that would also be like a significantly more environmentally impactful decision too. Maybe we just don't need more clothing. We need like the existing clothing that we have to like work for people.

Logan (14:11):
Would you say that a gender neutral line only benefit from the publicity so that other people are like, oh, this company has published a gender neutral line, they're obviously in support of people who are gender nonconforming or do you think it actually benefits the people who are gender nonconforming?

Annabelle (14:30):
That's a complicated question. I think that a gender neutral line would benefit people interacting with their gender identity. I think just because it... Even if it's like a money grab and even if it is a complete publicity stunt, it does still exist in the public sphere. And I think it does help normalize I think the idea that clothing is gender neutral. But I definitely think that I would have a lot of difficulty believing in the authenticity of the love and spirit behind the decision. So it would feel like a tax... Or not a tax grab, a money grab and it would be, but it might also have some small benefit. But that benefit, I think could also be like much more widespread if those companies donated a lot of money to like places that help people struggling with their identities or if they more radically came out in support of people interacting with their gender identities.

Logan (15:30):
So instead of launching a gender neutral line, you would suggest that companies use that money to actual organizations rather than consumer product?

Annabelle (15:41):
Yeah. I would.

Logan (15:44):
Would you say that the repercussions outweigh the benefits for launching a gender neutral line?

Annabelle (15:51):
The repercussions on like everyone in general or their targeted demographic?

Logan (15:56):
Let's do everyone in general. Oh, let's do both. Can you do both?

Annabelle (15:58):
I can do both. I mean, I think that the launching of a gender neutral line, if it was well done, obviously not if it was like some like horrifying, like insensitive monstrosity. Operating under the assumption that this is like an actually a good gender neutral line that I think does interact with the idea of like genderless clothing and the blurring of heavily gendered clothing across multiple gender identities. I think that would be beneficial to the demographic that they're trying to reach and to people buying clothing. In general, I think that environmentalism is my main concern. So I do think that the production of those clothing items and the resources behind them would damage the earth, making them non beneficial.

Logan (16:46):
So would you say that companies who claim to be environmental advocates or whose company's policy is we are environmentally friendly, would you suggest that they would just not make a gender neutral line?

Annabelle (16:57):
I think it depends on the company. I think that most companies who are truly environmentally beneficial are extremely expensive and probably aren't accessible to the average consumer. So if they want to go for it, maybe they should go for it. It's a difficult question because obviously we can't just ask people to wear old clothing that they're uncomfortable with. And I would not want that, but I do think that significant resources could be put into making clothing-

Logan (17:34):
Existing clothes in the store is more gender neutral?

Annabelle (17:36):
Yeah. Or like locating... I don't know.

Logan (17:39):
Okay.

Annabelle (17:39):
That would be my stance. But I do think that in general it would probably be positive for like the targeted audiences and their feeling of acceptance to see this in a store.

Logan (17:49):
Okay. So when done well, it's worth doing?

Annabelle (17:52):
Yeah.

Logan (17:54):
So moving on to online shopping. Sometimes when online shopping, stores do not include a gender neutral section or a gender inclusive section. Other times stores include a see everything button. What do you think is more beneficial?

Annabelle (18:10):
I think the see everything button. I mean, it's kind of like the thrift store question. It's a lot easier if everything is in one place and you can... I mean, normally you're not going to a store thinking like I need to buy clothing for a girl. You're going thinking, like I need a pair of pants, at least me personally. So for me, it would be much more beneficial to be able to see the various pairs of pants that I could purchase and not like random clothing that they think I would like to purchase because of my gender.

Logan (18:40):
Okay. There's a couple questions I have off of that. But the first one I think is sometimes there are retail stores that... Well, they offer things for necessity, such as Old Navy. And there's other clothing companies that offer things for luxury, like the homecoming stores or like Macy's or something. In which case do you think that dividing the clothes by gender depends on what the store is selling or do you think that overall as an overarching theme, it would be easier if everything was divided by category rather by gender?

Annabelle (19:14):
I think that things would be easier if divided by category. I mean, there are so many ways of doing it. I think that by type of garment would work, by category, by practicality, but yeah, not by gender.

Logan (19:28):
Okay. So overall, regardless of the store in online shopping, it would be better to have a see all button rather than a feminine, masculine, and gender neutral section.

Annabelle (19:42):
Yeah, definitely. I think encumber the average shopper when they're trying to spend money at your stores.

Logan (19:49):
Okay. Okay.

Annabelle (19:50):
So speaking directly to the-

Logan (19:52):
Yes. Yes. So when shopping for swimwear, this is a topic that is really debated because it is difficult for retail companies to produce a gender inclusive swim line when there are so many different body types. And with swimwear, usually it's either loose fitting or tight fitting. So a couple of other options have been to make a tight fitting and loose fitting section. But have you ever seen gender neutral somewhere? Like what does that even look like? Because when a lot of people have gender neutral clothing, it's usually loose fitting, like hoodies and sweatpants. So do you have any thoughts on that?

Annabelle (20:42):
I might have to like puzzle this out as I'm speaking to you.

Logan (20:44):
Okay. That's okay. We can ask some other questions in the meantime because that is a big question. Can you tell me the worst thing that a retail company can do by like... What's the worst thing that they could do?

Annabelle (20:58):
The worst thing that they can do?

Logan (20:58):
Worst case scenario for any retail company like that you know of?

Annabelle (21:04):
I would say that they could export all of their production to a country that can't afford to have significant environmental regulation, thus really heavily polluting the planet. And then they can take these clothing items, which are in this nightmare scenario, like heavily, heavily gender influenced, very limited sizing, probably size zero to two. They can sell them at very, very high rates. They can make sure not to have like physical stores so that they have to ship, which takes so much resources, so many resources. And then they can take that money and they can like donate it to Ted Cruz. That's my nightmare scenario.

Logan (21:52):
Oh, my God. That is a nightmare scenario.

Annabelle (21:56):
That's my worst case scenario.

Logan (21:57):
Oh, God. Okay. Would you say it is more efficient to shop in person or online anytime?

Annabelle (22:04):
More efficient?

Logan (22:05):
Yeah. More efficient.

Annabelle (22:06):
I don't know. It depends. I think that if you're shopping in person, if it's on your way, I think that it can be good in that you really know what the clothes are and you can kind of tell how they fit or even try them on. So in that way it maybe sometimes saves you from having to return stuff or not like what you get and then it's like wasted, but online shopping also can be done I think in a shorter amount of time and does also generally offer more variety. So it could be more efficient in that you're not running around looking for an article of clothing that may not exist physically in store. So I think it depends on the consumer.

Logan (22:45):
So for the people that are looking for something specific, like if a girl came in and she was looking for a crop top that would match with her jeans, would you suggest that because in this hypothetical scenario, the clothing is divided by section that they would have subsections or is there like a... Is it divided by size? Is it divided by color? Is it divided by like how it fits? Is it divided by masculine and feminine inside of the... What kind of scenario do you... Well, not scenario. What kind of situation would you envision that the sorting of the clothes would be specifically if you have any ideas?

Annabelle (23:24):
Oh, I think that a subgrouping would I think be necessary. I think that I personally would find it most useful if it was by style. If there was a huge shirt section and then you could pick like collared button downs or crop tops or tank tops. And I think that within that there would be no gender specification or gender separation, but I think that I would find it most useful if it was by style or cut of the clothing, but maybe someone else would prefer like color or something like that.

Logan (23:57):
So it would be by like what kind of clothing is it and then what form of it does it come in you would say?

Annabelle (24:06):
I would say that. Yeah.

Logan (24:07):
Okay. Do you have any final thoughts?

Annabelle (24:10):
Well, in my dream scenario, obviously I think that we would stop producing clothing, but clothing is going to be produced regardless of my own personal wants and hopes and dreams. So obviously clothing is going to be produced. And I think that if clothing needs to be produced, which it's going to be, it would be very meaningful and very important I think for people right now, if clothing companies could operate under the assumption that clothing has no gender or would I think fulfill that idea in their stores in the way that they're producing clothing and the way that they're producing their sizing of clothing and the way that they're like deciding to even like brief store associates about how to treat people in their stores. I think that would be meaningful and would be helpful and would I think streamline the process and help you sell more clothing and would kill the earth faster, but hey, it's going to happen. So I think that this would be meaningful and I think that it is necessary.

Logan (25:21):
So from the top down, if stores wanted to become more gender inclusive, it would have to be everything like from the way that they train the people that they hire, from the way that the designers design the clothes, from the way that people produce the clothes, from the way they market the clothes, from the way the shopping experience is overall? It's like everything?

Annabelle (25:38):
Sort of. I don't think there's anything wrong with clothing that has a heavy gender association, like a prom dress obviously is thought of as a very feminine article of clothing. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I think that it needs to maybe be designed in a way for like everyone who wants to wear them. And I think that they need to be produced and exist in sizes that are usable by everyone. And I think that they need to be sold in a place that is comfortable for everyone. So they don't need to not exist. They just need to be, I think, more accessible.

Logan (26:17):
This is kind of getting into something else, but it's not just a problem with gender inclusivity. It's a problem with clothes not fitting everyone's body type?

Annabelle (26:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Obviously outside of sizing and relationship to the way that clothing interacts with gender, size is something that needs to be considered for clothing.

Logan (26:37):
Okay. And thank you very much.

Annabelle (26:38):
Thank you.

Logan (00:00):
Hi, my name is Logan Silvers.

Lee (00:03):
Hi, my name is Lee.

Logan (00:05):
And we are going to begin the interview. Okay. So let's start out with the first question, which is: Do you enjoy shopping and, if so, how often do you shop?

Lee (00:16):
I think I enjoy shopping a regular amount. I probably shop every few weeks, when I'm curious, or when I need new clothes.

Logan (00:26):
What do you shop for the most often, like shirts, pants? Is there any particular item?

Lee (00:32):
Shirts. I love just using shirts and mixing, matching for outfits and stuff like that. And hoodies and sweaters.

Logan (00:39):
Do your shirts... Do you ever notice a particular pattern on them? Do you shop for graphic tees, or is it just plain, or is it like... What kind of shirts?

Lee (00:49):
I really like graphic tees, going to Hot Topic and then... Stuff at Hot Topic and/or Spencer's and stuff like that. They have tons of designs and shows and different artists that they hire.

Logan (01:02):
Do you like that what you wear reflects your interests?

Lee (01:05):
Yes.

Logan (01:06):
Have you ever shopped outside of Hot Topic or Spencers?

Lee (01:10):
Yeah.

Logan (01:11):
Do you shop from any of the gendered sections?

Lee (01:13):
Yeah. I do. I dude shop in the women's section because often they'll be clothes more tailored to my body type.

Logan (01:22):
So have you noticed... Have you ever taken a look at the men's section?

Lee (01:26):
Yeah.

Logan (01:27):
Would you say that there is a visible difference between the clothing in the women's section and the men's section?

Lee (01:32):
For sure. There's just a lot more neutral styles in the men's section, I've realized. There's also a lot more practical styles, I guess, whereas the women's styles are more fashionable and chic, or trendy.

Logan (01:46):
So you would say the men's section isn't very trendy?

Lee (01:49):
It's not.

Logan (01:51):
Have you noticed that, as fashion trends begin emerging, the men's section has stayed the same?

Lee (01:57):
I've noticed some changes in some stores that done different designs, but, for the most part, there hasn't been a drastic change. There hasn't... The men's section isn't very feminine at all, which is something that you'd expect, whereas the feminine section has incorporated more masculine styles and designs.

Logan (02:19):
Do you think that you would ever shop from the men's section?

Lee (02:22):
Yeah. I have shopped from the men's section. But, again, it's mainly for hoodies, or sweatshirts, or generic pieces of clothing because, again, they don't really have... I don't know. ... Interesting designs often.

Logan (02:35):
The men's section you would say is very boring?

Lee (02:37):
I would consider. Yeah.

Logan (02:38):
Would you say that you notice a difference in the graphic tees as well?

Lee (02:43):
I would say that there isn't for the graphic tees, but most of them are moving towards unisex sort of fitting. You know what I mean? So I don't know if there's that much of a difference.

Logan (02:56):
When... Sorry. When you notice unisex fitting, have you noticed that there's any kind of particular fit that they fit, like loose, or tight, or just kind of like... When a clothing launches a unisex t-shirt, would you say that it is partial, and it fits some body types more than others?

Lee (03:12):
I feel like they're definitely made to be more looser so it fits more people, but I don't know if that's necessarily the move that they should go to. Because I know that some unisex brands fit me very well and, other ones, they fit me just kind of weird or baggy.

Logan (03:32):
Have you ever seen a clothing company launch a gender neutral line? And, if so, what does that look like for you?

Lee (03:37):
No, I've never seen a company launch, specifically, a gender neutral line.

Logan (03:41):
Have you ever seen... Have you ever felt uncomfortable shopping in the men's section of the store?

Lee (03:47):
Yeah. I've felt uncomfortable because it just feels weird, or you don't know what people think. They'll think, "Oh, why are you there?" Right? "Are you shopping for a boyfriend, or a brother, or dad, or whatever?" Shopping in the men's section, there are definitely clothes that just won't fit me. Especially me, I'm a bit of a... I'm a plus-size person. I also have a very feminine body. I have very wide hips, and men's clothing don't really... Aren't made to accommodate that.

Logan (04:16):
Have you ever found that, just kind of in general, there isn't a lot of diversity, in terms of clothing options, both in the men's and women's section?

Lee (04:26):
Yeah. I think so. I feel like it's very limited fashion in both categories, especially if you want a more gender neutral sort of wardrobe.

Logan (04:37):
Have you felt that you haven't been given as many options as other people because of the lack of diversity in clothing?

Lee (04:46):
Yeah. For sure. I definitely feel like I sometimes will have to go to a bunch of different stores, just to find a few pieces of clothing that I will actually like and will wear.

Logan (04:57):
Have you ever felt that that's limiting, or is that an uncomfortable experience for you?

Lee (05:01):
Yeah. Definitely. Sometimes I will be shopping with my sister, and she's very feminine forward. You know what I mean? So she'll find a lot of clothing that she loves and that she'll wear, but then I won't find as much because I don't really like, or I'm not super into, the super-feminine clothing.

Logan (05:18):
So would you think that making gender neutral clothing would help solve this issue?

Lee (05:25):
I think so. I think it will be a step into the right direction. It just depends on how they will execute it.

Logan (05:31):
I've noticed that you said, in the beginning, that, a lot of times, in the women's sections, they have more masculine clothing, but, in the men's sections, they have scarcely any feminine clothing at all.

Lee (05:42):
Yeah. But I think that's more of a societal issue and a issue with consumers because, typically, people that will buy masculine clothing aren't into feminine clothing, like men's.

Logan (05:52):
Do you think that the gendered sections in the stores are helpful?

Lee (05:56):
For the typical person? They're probably pretty helpful because, if you're a person that is a Cis woman, you will probably just look for clothes in the women's section and vice versa. But, if you're a person that has maybe more alternative fashion, or just gender non-conforming fashion, then you... It is kind of difficult.

Logan (06:18):
Would you say it's difficult because you can't find what you're looking for, or is it difficult because of the size and the fit?

Lee (06:23):
I think it's a combination of all of them. It's a lot easier to shop online because you'll find a lot more diversity online, whereas, in person, they don't really hold a lot of different styles to accommodate people.

Logan (06:35):
Have you said that... Would you say that stores gender their clothing less online than in person?

Lee (06:41):
Yeah. I feel like you'll find a lot more unisex clothing, or gender neutral clothing, online, especially... Oh, sorry. Especially small businesses that will tailor gender neutral clothing.

Logan (06:57):
Is it more comfortable to shop online because you don't have that kind of pressure from society?

Lee (07:02):
I think it is more comfortable, but it's also... There's a lot of... There's a lot more risk with online shopping than in-person shopping. And in-person shopping... You're more confident with the product, and you get to see the quality and the actual size.

Logan (07:16):
Would you say, if stores kept the gendered sections but made the gendered sections less gendered, that it would be more comfortable as a shopping experience for everyone?

Lee (07:27):
I think so. Yeah. For sure.

Logan (07:28):
Do you think the problem is the lack of diversity in the gendered stopping sections or the gendered sections themselves?

Lee (07:34):
I think it's the lack of diversity in the gendered shopping section because I do think they help. Typically, if you're a feminine person looking for feminine clothing, it will help a lot. And then-

Logan (07:44):
You would say that it would be more beneficial for everyone involved to include more options in the men's and women's section, rather than eliminate the men's and women's section and just make it a non-gendered store?

Lee (07:58):
Well, I think they can keep the men's and women's section and just make it more inclusive on both sides. You know what I mean? Or they could add, maybe, a separate section that's just for androgynous styles.

Logan (08:12):
Would it be more convenient to have a men's, women's, and androgynous section? Or do you think that there should be no sections and, instead, the sections should be t-shirts, pants, sweatpants. Should they organize it by clothes, or should they continue to organize it by feminine, masculine, and androgynous?

Lee (08:28):
I think it would be really cool to see a store organized just by different types of clothing, but, even then, they would have to be organized between feminine or masculine styles and fits.

Logan (08:38):
So it does have to be organized by gender for convenience?

Lee (08:41):
I think so. Yeah. It just makes it easier for both the consumer and people that are running the store.

Logan (08:48):
Have you ever been into a store that organized by size?

Lee (08:52):
Yeah. I've been in a few.

Logan (08:55):
Would you say that that is convenient or inconvenient? Or is that a comfortable shopping experience for you?

Lee (09:02):
I think, on theory, it's more convenient, but it might be inconvenient to people that maybe aren't comfortable with their size or people that-

Logan (09:16):
One of the options... I bring this up because one of the options for making stores genderless is to divide by... Let's say you have a section of shirts. And then, from that section of shirts, you organize from smallest to largest. Would you say that would be convenient or that would be too uncomfortable for it to matter?

Lee (09:35):
I think it will be more convenient than uncomfortable, honestly. I feel like most people have a general sense of what their size is and, if you don't fit in whatever clothes from that size, you can just move up one.

Logan (09:49):
Is it better to have sections based on clothing type, like shirts, pants, sweatpants, and then, from there, organize from smallest to largest? Or do you think it should be a small section, medium section, large section, and, from there organized into clothes?

Lee (10:03):
I think it'll be a lot more convenient to do it by clothing type and then doing it by size.

Logan (10:08):
Would you say that that's more comfortable too?

Lee (10:10):
Yeah.

Logan (10:11):
Do you think that gender neutral clothing is helpful? If a company was like, "Oh, for Pride Month, we have to launch a gender neutral line." How do you find that?

Lee (10:22):
I think it is helpful, but, if it's just for Pride Month, it's kind of just performative and pandering.

Logan (10:28):
Do you think that performative activism is still helpful, or is it more harmful?

Lee (10:33):
I think it is helpful, but the fact that companies will only be comfortable with doing inclusive clothing during a certain time of month is really sucky, like Target... I know Target, right now, has a Pride Month, and I've seen so many people talk about how they love the current Pride line. Right? And certain designs. But the thing is is that they will only do it during Pride month and not any other time of the year.

Logan (11:01):
On the website, is it more beneficial to have masculine, feminine, and all section, or is it more beneficial to have a masculine, feminine and androgynous selection?

Lee (11:13):
I think probably a masculine, feminine, and androgynous selection would probably be the best. Because, if you're only looking for androgynous clothing, then just having an all section will be everything.

Logan (11:24):
When you see androgyny presented in fashion, do you think it's more feminine, masculine, or do you think it's truly androgynous?

Lee (11:29):
I think it's, honestly, a lot more masculine leaning because people see t-shirts and pants as androgynous because both men and women can wear it. But you won't really see dresses, or skirts, or frilly clothing in androgynous sections.

Logan (11:43):
Would you say that androgynous clothing has the color and femininity of feminine clothing? Or do you think it has the darkness and conservativeness of masculine clothing?

Lee (11:54):
I think it's usually a lot more dark and a lot more neutrals, but, in some fashion brands, I have seen a lot of bright colors and color blocking and stuff like that.

Logan (12:04):
Do you think that color blocking like that is helpful in a gender neutral line?

Lee (12:09):
I think so. It really brightens up wardrobes and stuff like that. And it honestly just sucks seeing a bunch of neutrals all the time.

Logan (12:18):
Okay. Well, thank you so much for the interview.

Lee (12:20):
Oh, thank you.

Logan (00:00):
Hello, my name is Logan and today we are going to be interviewing-

Luke (00:04):
Luke Patton Van-Buskirk. My pronouns are he, him and I identify as a male.

Logan (00:08):
The first question on our agenda is, do you shop? And if you shop, do you shop in person or do you shop online? Or just kind of like how is your shopping experience?

Luke (00:18):
I shop. When I shop it's usually in person with my friends, I'll rarely ever shop online. But I usually end up not buying anything because I don't know if it fits me.

Logan (00:27):
That's really interesting. Have you ever thrifted or no because of the same reason?

Luke (00:31):
I actually thrift often. Usually nothing fits me because I'm a very small person and I find that most thrift clothing is larger than me, but I do go thrifting often. I used to shop mainly for comfort because I was like really into being athletic all the time but now I shop a lot more for style recently.

Logan (00:53):
You don't want to add to that?

Luke (00:53):
No.

Logan (00:53):
Okay. That's okay. Can you describe a little bit what you're wearing right now and why?

Luke (00:57):
Right now I'm wearing sweatpants and a hoodie because all of the clothing I like is dirty and this was the only thing that was clean.

Logan (01:02):
Interesting. Interesting. Well, I do notice that it's very color coordinated. Do a lot of the items in your closet color coordinate with each other? Like if you picked something at random it would probably match?

Luke (01:14):
Absolutely not. Because up until this year or maybe last year, all of the clothing I shopped for was simply like with the focus of, "Can I wear this at practice for track and field or ultimate Frisbee?" So it was just anything that seemed athletically wearable, and style did not matter at all.

Logan (01:31):
So when it came to color palette, what does your closet look like?

Luke (01:36):
Well, right now most of it is probably just grays and blacks and a little bit of blues. The more recent colors I've been getting, I try to make more pink and green because I really like those colors.

Logan (01:45):
So like the pastels?

Luke (01:46):
Yeah. Pastel colors.

Logan (01:48):
Would you say that pastel colors are easy to find for you?

Luke (01:52):
No, probably not to be honest. If I look I can definitely find them, but they're definitely not the first thing I usually find in clothing stores.

Logan (02:00):
Have you noticed that trend overall in masculine clothing where it usually comes in darker colors?

Luke (02:06):
Yeah, definitely. And I can still wear those colors but there definitely is a trend of like not darker colors. And I'd also say more clothing I enjoy, like I very much enjoy graphic tees or sweaters with graphics, a lot of like men's clothing seems to not have just a simple graphic. That clothing I usually find in the woman's section.

Logan (02:26):
Would you say that you dress conservatively?

Luke (02:29):
Maybe only a little, but not by intention.

Logan (02:32):
Okay. So if the clothing options were given to you where it had like shorter sleeves or like shorter on the bottom or anything, you would choose that?

Luke (02:41):
Yeah. I'd absolutely be willing to wear that.

Logan (02:43):
So would you say that there's a lot of diversity when it comes to masculine clothing?

Luke (02:48):
No, not really. I think men's style is extremely simple. And especially compared to like feminine style, masculine style seems to be extremely simple most of the time so there's not really a lot you can do with it.

Logan (03:01):
Would you say that masculine clothing is more traditional and has stayed the same over the years?

Luke (03:05):
Yeah. Yeah, I'd definitely say that for sure. I feel like it's just been kind of... I feel like masculine style probably hasn't really been thought of as often as feminine style has been especially throughout history.

Luke (03:19):
And even today I feel like if you're more feminine presenting, you're expected a lot more to think about your style than masculine presenting.

Logan (03:26):
Can you expand anymore of why you think that might be? Just like as a thought.

Luke (03:31):
Yeah. I think it comes down to people that were seen as more feminine were more expected to have to look good all of the time. Like if you didn't, then that was disrespectful. And I think people that presented more masculine at the same time it was considered odd if you cared more about your style.

Luke (03:48):
Like sophomore year, I wanted to try stuff like painting my nails, and that like genuinely a couple of my friends were afraid of me for a week. After I painted my nails they didn't know how to react. Some of them were uncomfortable. And like when I mentioned piercing my ears, one of my friends he was like, "No, please don't Luke. Trust me, you don't want to do that." So I think there's like a bit of push against that to like try and experiment more with men's fashion.

Logan (04:11):
So you would say that women's clothing has always been trendy while masculine clothing has always been the same?

Luke (04:19):
Yeah, absolutely. I do think man's clothing kind of has maybe grown a little and that it can still be trendy, but I do think it's been stayed a lot more simple throughout the years compared to feminine clothing.

Logan (04:30):
Can you name an example that you can remember where men's clothing has been trendy?

Luke (04:35):
One example I can remember is boxers. A lot of people were talking about boxers recently and enjoying wearing them, but that's not really something you can see on a person.

Logan (04:45):
Do you shop from the male or masculine clothing section?

Luke (04:48):
Yeah. But I also shop from like the female or feminine section.

Logan (04:53):
So you do look at both sections?

Luke (04:54):
Yeah, absolutely. Because like there's clothing there that fits me well and I very much enjoy it.

Logan (04:58):
Have you ever felt uncomfortable when you were shopping in that clothing section?

Luke (05:03):
Personally, no. But the first time I did it, I was with someone and they were like, "Oh, you want to shop from the feminine section?" Like that's the exact tone they said it and they were shopping from that section too but they were feminine presenting. And I think that just caught them a little off guard.

Luke (05:18):
And then more recently too, I was at Aeropostale and all I was looking at was like the t-shirts in the feminine section. Like I didn't even bother reading the section because I didn't care. And my friend was like, "Oh, you're shopping from there." And at... Like once he caught himself he was absolutely supportive but for a second he was implying like you can't pull that off because it's feminine.

Logan (05:36):
Sure.

Luke (05:37):
But if you looked at the t-shirts, I guarantee you almost nobody in the world would've been able to figure out whether or not they were feminine or masculine.

Logan (05:43):
Is it because of the feminine clothing to choice or because of the body type that feminine clothes fit on?

Luke (05:50):
I'm not sure. I think it's probably more of the feminine clothing choice. Because like when I was shopping it was just t-shirts. And the t-shirt I wear, it probably makes me look more masculine than feminine because it accents my body in that sort of way.

Luke (06:02):
I believe that most people would... Like once again, I think if you put the shirt down and then ask an array of people like, "Would this belong in the feminine section or the masculine section?" I don't think anyone would have a justifiable reason to answer one way or the other.

Logan (06:16):
When shopping at retail clothing stores, what retail clothing stores do you know that you shop from?

Luke (06:21):
The ones I know that I shop from common are probably Aeropostale, the Vans store, except I never get anything because it's like $70 for a shirt. Forever 21. And there's one more, but I'm blanking on the name.

Logan (06:36):
Because men's clothing caters to a very dark conservative look, you would say that you go into other kinds of clothing sections because you can't find what you're looking for?

Luke (06:48):
Absolutely. What I usually look for is pastel, like pink and greens I very much enjoy. And also just clothing with like colorful graphics on it. I find that masculine clothing can have graphics but usually it's very dim, dark graphics or it's focused for like a sport.

Luke (07:05):
And I want... Like I own a Mean Girls t-shirt, it's one of my favorite t-shirts and I don't think that could ever end up in the masculine section because Mean Girls is not masculine.

Logan (07:13):
When companies release a gender neutral line, what do you think that looks like to you?

Luke (07:19):
I think it's just clothing that would be very androgynous, like something you could put on a table. A dress, for example, maybe not and may not end there, but it can because it's supposed to be either or.

Logan (07:30):
Can you elaborate a little more?

Luke (07:32):
I think gender neutral clothing, it would most likely be based mostly off of shape just because the idea is that it could fit feminine and masculine presenting people, that's what I imagine. I feel like jackets can be... Well, I don't know of any company [inaudible 00:07:44].

Logan (07:44):
Right. But you mentioned that a dress was definitely something that they probably wouldn't produce.

Luke (07:49):
Well, yes. I think they probably wouldn't because if there's a gender neutral line, I feel like the idea would be both people could shop there comfortably. And I think most masculine people wouldn't end up purchasing a dress and most feminine people might not end up purchasing a suit.

Luke (08:02):
So what I imagine is stuff that is considered very feminine or very masculine, like dresses or suits might not end up there. But I believe everything else like in between could. Like sweaters, sweatpants, t-shirts, jeans, jackets, all of that. It's very normal for masculine and feminine people to wear it.

Logan (08:20):
Of course the goal of gender neutral clothing lines is supposed to be androgynous. But have you ever... would you imagine that the clothing choices that they would release would be skewed more masculine or feminine?

Luke (08:33):
I am not sure which one it would be skewed. I think if it had to be one, it might be skewed more masculine just because as I said earlier, masculine clothing is much more simple than feminine clothing.

Luke (08:46):
And I feel like because of that, it's a lot more... people feel that it's more, not normal is the word, but I feel like more commonly you see feminine presenting people wearing masculine clothing than vice versa. So I think masculine clothing would more likely end up being there.

Logan (09:03):
Would you say that there's more of a stigma around people who are masculine presenting choosing to buy feminine clothing rather than a feminine presenting person choosing to buy masculine clothing?

Luke (09:14):
I think yes. But I think the only reason there might be more of a stigma is just because it's more noticeable.

Logan (09:20):
Would you say that... Because you shop in person, right?

Luke (09:23):
Yeah. Yeah.

Logan (09:24):
Okay. So would you say that when you're shopping in person, you can clearly see the lines where the stores are divided by gender?

Luke (09:32):
In certain areas, yes. In some places, no. For example, at Aeropostale, I didn't even notice that I was shopping in the woman's section until my friends pointed out. Because it was just t-shirts. It was just t-shirts and sweaters and they had like a small sign that said it.

Luke (09:45):
But in other places... Like if I walked into Victoria's Secret I would definitely be like, "Yeah. Okay. This is feminine clothing."

Logan (09:50):
Oh my God. I really don't think it's pronounced Aeropostale, I think it's like Aeropostale.

Luke (09:55):
[inaudible 00:09:55]. I thought so.

Logan (09:56):
Yeah, I think it's like Aeropostale.

Luke (09:56):
I'm not sure though.

Logan (09:56):
It's okay, I'll edit. But how do you think that Aeropostale divides... Can you say like how they divide their clothes if you remember?

Luke (10:06):
So all I remember is that they... just one side of the store was feminine and one side was masculine, but they don't carry anything like dresses or skirts. They might carry skirts. But from my memory they don't carry anything like dresses. So at Aeropostale I actually had no clue where it is.

Luke (10:23):
I'm pretty sure their main idea of it is shirts that just had stuff like a city on it, that was considered like masculine, so it would go on the masculine side. And then t-shirts that had bands or TV shows for some reason seemed to be considered feminine.

Logan (10:39):
Sure. How did they divide the store? Because you were talking about like by sections.

Luke (10:41):
You mean like... Oh.

Logan (10:41):
How did they divide the store?

Luke (10:49):
They literally just... I totally misunderstood. The men's section had its own section of t-shirts and pants and sweaters and then the feminine section would have the same thing. It was like you could split the room down in half and it would be like they mirrored the room, but one side was considered feminine and one side was considered masculine.

Logan (11:04):
Okay. But shirts were in the front and pants were in the back kind of thing?

Luke (11:06):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Except the feminine shirts were in the back instead. It was very odd.

Logan (11:15):
Okay. So like when you walked in, what's first?

Luke (11:16):
Okay, so when you walk in the most apparent thing is this like whole row of t-shirts they have and it's like masculine and it's like right on your right. And then they have like... They just had like a stand. And they would just like fold the men's shirts on it.

Luke (11:27):
And then the feminine t-shirts and sweaters were in the back like leftmost corner. If I'm walking in, it was in the back leftmost corner. And then the masculine pants were in the back right most corner but the feminine pants was in the up left, like right next to me on the left.

Logan (11:42):
Do you think that gender neutral fashion lines, like when a company during pride month is like, "We need to release a gender neutral pride line." Do you think that's helpful?

Luke (11:53):
If they're doing it just for pride month, that's not really helpful at all. Because that's kind of like, "Oh look, this new trendy thing." But then that kind of like makes it differentiate. That causes it to be something different when I feel like it's not that different. It's just a gender neutral clothing line that like it would just make sense to implement in stores.

Luke (12:17):
I think if they started it during pride month and kept it, that would be helpful. But I think if they just had it only during pride month that makes it almost seem more like a trendy thing that they're trying to do.

Logan (12:26):
Do you think it would be easier to have the store divided into masculine, feminine and gender neutral?

Luke (12:32):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Logan (12:33):
Okay. So it should be compartmentalized into those three sections or should it be like intertwined? Because I know that you mentioned that all the shirts were in one section but they were divided into three subsections and those were masculine, feminine and gender neutral. Is that what you were thinking?

Luke (12:53):
Yeah, I think it would make most sense if the same type of clothing was in the same section. And then maybe from there on you could have it split up into threes like you just said.

Logan (13:01):
Okay.

Luke (13:01):
That's what I imagine would make most sense and it would be easiest to shop for.

Logan (13:05):
Do you find that shopping style is convenient?

Luke (13:08):
Yeah, absolutely. Like for me especially. Because like the Mean Girls t-shirts, one of my favorite t-shirts, I almost wasn't able to find it because I wasn't aware there was another t-shirt section in the back corner of the store.

Logan (13:18):
Do you think that by having the stores less obviously divided it makes it more comfortable for people to shop for things that aren't catered to the gender that they are assigned?

Luke (13:36):
Absolutely. And I also believe that people that were assigned to the gender that they were are being catered to by the gender that they were assigned. I think they are more likely to find clothing they might enjoy because they won't have that mental block of, "This isn't for me because this isn't in my section." They might look at it and be like, "Oh, I actually like that shirt or that pants."

Logan (13:54):
While we're talking about feminine clothes and their fit, have you noticed that masculine clothes tend to fit masculine people better and feminine clothes tend to fit feminine people better?

Luke (14:04):
What I've really noticed is that feminine clothing just seems to fit smaller people better. And then masculine clothing just seems to fit bigger people better. So if masculine people tend to be bigger, then yeah, I'm sure that's how it would be.

Luke (14:16):
But that's what I've mostly noticed, is that feminine clothing, just like it usually is naturally smaller and then if it's bigger, it's meant to be baggy, is what it seems.

Logan (14:26):
Would you say that when shopping for feminine clothing, do you find it difficult to find your size?

Luke (14:30):
No, not at all actually. Sometimes it's too big for me because I'm a nice five four inches. The only thing I'd say is like bigger than the average person is I have sort of broad shoulders. But no, I actually find that finding men's clothing, like jeans that can fit my legs, I find that to be more difficult.

Logan (14:48):
Have you ever seen gender neutral jeans?

Luke (14:50):
No. I've only seen jeans orchestrated by like masculine and feminine. I mean jeans as a whole, it might make sense to be gender neutral. Because my friend Finley he's masculine and he's like six foot, or almost six foot. I shouldn't have dropped his name.

Luke (15:06):
But anyway, he's a very tall lanky guy and he struggles to find jeans at all in any section, ever. So-

Logan (15:15):
So it's not just a problem with gender inclusivity, but just body inclusivity overall?

Luke (15:20):
Yeah, because he's exceptionally.... Like he's not exceptionally skinny but he has very skinny legs. He's a very big running kind of guy, but then he can't find jeans that fit him well. And I used to have much bigger legs, but my legs used to be very disproportionate to my body.

Luke (15:34):
Like they were probably a third of my body weight and I could never find jeans that fit so I would walk around with jeans that like went almost to my heels.

Logan (15:42):
When talking about body inclusivity like as a vague spectrum, a lot of retail companies usually bring up that topic when talking about swimsuits.

Logan (15:53):
This is a very interesting question because not a lot of companies have executed this, but how would you find an androgynous swimwear collection? Like what do you think that looks like?

Luke (16:07):
So I have definitely never seen that before. I once again think that just because masculine clothing is more simple that maybe masculine swimwear would probably be more acceptable there.

Luke (16:19):
But I think androgynous swimwear would probably just be like... swimsuits makes the most sense to me. Like just the one piece bodysuit that can cover almost your whole body. Like sometimes people-

Logan (16:31):
Like a surf suit?

Luke (16:32):
Yeah, but not entirely. I don't mean like the big long sleeves because you're not going to be hitting the water hard.

Logan (16:39):
Right. Like a stylish surf suit?

Luke (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Logan (16:45):
Okay. You said that it would be easier if everything was divided by category, like shirts, pants, jeans, hoodies, or whatever, and then subdivided by gender. Do you still stay that that's... Yeah?

Luke (17:00):
Yeah. I don't.... I mean at that point I don't know how necessary it is to divide by gender. Just because if you like a shirt or not, I don't think it matters. And I do think there are certain scenarios where it makes sense. Like once again, Victoria's Secret is pretty feminine but I do believe that it makes more sense to divide things by category than by gender.

Logan (17:24):
Okay. So you would not subdivide by gender, you would subdivide by category again?

Luke (17:29):
Yeah, probably. I mean if like... It would make sense to separate crop tops from shirts. But you don't need to say, "Oh, crop tops are feminine."

Logan (17:38):
Would you say that it would be more engaging to shop like that when you have so many options of shirts right in front of you? Because a lot of the times when stores divide by gender, they do it so in a way where it's like everything that's related to beach is in one section.

Logan (17:54):
So you would have a button down right next to a pair of shorts, kind of thing. Do you think that can still happen if the stores were more inclusive?

Luke (18:04):
Yeah. I absolutely still think that can happen. I don't think there needs to be... I don't think it'd be the end of the world if when I go shopping, there might be a bra next to my t-shirt or a skirt. I'm not going to struggle to now buy-

Logan (18:19):
It's not going to deter you in any way?

Luke (18:20):
No, no. It's still the same clothing. It doesn't change, it still fits me.

Logan (18:26):
Okay. What about... Do you think it's more convenient if you were just kind of like, "I only have like 15 minutes in this store and I need to find this, this." Do you think that you'll still be able to find that if everything was mixed together?

Luke (18:40):
Absolutely. I think separating it by gender makes the stores have to figure out how to use their space in a much more difficult way almost. Because now you have to figure out how to have two t-shirt sections, two sweater sections, two pants sections. And I think it's much more economic in terms of space, or agronomic might be the word for that, if you could just all put them in the same section.

Luke (19:02):
And then it might be easier for someone to find something they enjoy that they might have not thought they enjoyed. Because if you don't label it as feminine, masculine people, or men mostly to be honest, because more of them suffer from the male gays on themselves, they might actually be easier for them to purchase something that they enjoy.

Logan (19:18):
So you would say that when you divide by category, the stores might not need such a big space?

Luke (19:25):
Yeah. I mean, realistically it's not like they'd lose space. But yeah, because it's more-

Logan (19:31):
But they wouldn't need a larger space to divide everything?

Luke (19:34):
Yeah, because it's more compact now.

Logan (19:35):
Have you ever been inside an Urban Outfitters?

Luke (19:37):
Yeah. Yeah I have.

Logan (19:39):
Can you describe your experience at the Urban Outfitters? I'm bringing this up because they have an open floor plan and sometimes they divide by gender in the ways that like men are in the basement kind of thing.

Logan (19:50):
But they also divided some stores by category. I don't know. Like just kind of, if you can remember the last time you were in an Urban Outfitters, like anything?

Luke (19:59):
So I actually can. Because it like goes exactly with the men in the basement woman on the top thing. I went with my girlfriend and it was actually like difficult to shop at the same time because-

Logan (20:09):
Because you went together?

Luke (20:11):
Well, yeah, we went together. So at first I was like in the woman's section and I was liking the clothing. I was like, "Well, let's go to the masculine." But the thing is like I'm comfortable with switching masculine feminine because feminine clothing works.

Luke (20:23):
But she doesn't really like masculine clothing as much because she likes a lot more brighter colors and masculine clothing is all dim. So she actually was like, "Oh well I'm going to stay up here." So then we had to like split for a bit.

Logan (20:32):
Right. And then you came back and then you had to split again just to kind of find everything that you were looking for?

Luke (20:37):
Yeah. Because everything I was looking for was in two different places and everything she was looking for was also sometimes in two different places.

Logan (20:45):
Because it's difficult for you to find bright colors in the men's section?

Luke (20:48):
Yeah, it is. It can be. And usually if there is, it's usually a graphic tee, which is fine. But usually men's clothing is like dark and the occasional time it's bright, it's usually only white or beige.

Logan (21:01):
Do you have any extra thoughts for the project that you wanted to add? Any kind of closing thoughts you might have?

Luke (21:07):
I think it's very important to release gender neutral lines for one thing I haven't mentioned. And it's that non-binary people, when they go into a store they're forced to instantly masculinize or feminize themselves just to get the clothing that they might want which might be a little difficult if someone's like experiencing gender dysphoria. That might be very difficult for them.

Logan (00:00):
Hello, my name is Logan.
V (00:02):
My name's V, I use she/her pronouns.
Logan (00:04):
So the first question is how does outward expression affect just kind of like how you feel during your
day?
V (00:11):
Well, I feel like if I don't dress in an interesting way to me, in a way that makes me feel like I express
myself, it's kind of boring and makes me feel worse about myself in a way. Yeah.
Logan (00:20):
So it affects your mood?
V (00:22):
Yeah. And how I would go about my day otherwise. Yeah.
Logan (00:26):
When we're talking about gender and inclusivity in fashion, do you have a specific vision or idea of what
you think that might look like?
V (00:33):
Personally, it doesn't matter to me what section of the store I'm shopping in. But for a lot of people,
their parents won't let them buy from the men's section or the women's section or whatever. And I
really like shopping in both sections because there's cool stuff in both sections and just breaking those
divides so that people are allowed to wear what they want.
Logan (00:53):
So do you think there is a stigma around people who shop in the gender section that they are not
identified as?
V (01:02):
Oh, for sure. This is an example outside of fashion, but I'm not allowed to wear men's deodorant, which
is inconvenient at times. But I think that those kind of gender divides kind of impact people's expression.
Logan (01:16):
Have you ever seen a gender neutral line launched by any kind of retail clothing companies? And if so,
what does that look like to you?
V (01:25):
The only thing I remember of that kind of thing is like kids' clothes. When I was really little, there would
be gender neutral pajamas and stuff like that, but that kind of stuff isn't for kids, it's for everyone. So,
yeah.
Logan (01:40):
So you've never seen a gender neutral line?
V (01:42):
I bet they're out there, but not that I can remember.
Logan (01:45):
Have you ever started experimenting with your fashion choice, either if you have a current aesthetic or
just kind of what do you have in your closet?
V (01:54):
I don't really believe in aesthetics, which is stupid because obviously things look cool and I think things
look cool. But anything that seems fun, I will buy and wear. If everything was more accessible, than for
sure more people would do it and more people would mess with how they look, which would be fun.
Logan (02:14):
What does more accessible look like to you?
V (02:16):
Diversity in clothing lines, in brands across the board, both in gendered fashion and otherwise. So
different cuts for both men and women and different patterns and stuff like that.
Logan (02:29):
Do you think that another one of the problems of people shopping in a gendered section that is outside
of their identified gender is that there is a social stigma? But on top of that, it's that nothing would fit
them because it's designed to fit a certain shape of body?
V (02:46):
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Size restrictions are totally a real thing. And maybe even worse because people that
don't care about social stigma can't experiment with their fashion anyway. So yeah, definitely agree.
Logan (02:57):
How do you feel about retail fashion stores separating their stores by gender?
V (03:03):
I think at this point in time, it's more convenience than something most people actually care about. So if
people wanted to stop doing, it doesn't really matter and that they should if they want to.
Logan (03:17):
Where do you shop from?
V (03:18):
I kind of shop from everywhere. I'm not really brand loyal to anything. I used to thrift a lot, but I don't
really do that much anymore. I don't know, anywhere that looks cool I'll go into.
Logan (03:31):
Have you shopped for clothes anytime recently? The last time you went shopping for clothes was?
V (03:36):
The last time I went shopping for clothes was two weeks ago. I got a Kohl's gift card from my aunt and
uncle and I spent that in the little boy's section, getting a Spider-Man and a Car's shirt.
Logan (03:47):
Do you appreciate the graphic tees?
V (03:50):
Oh, I do. Yeah. I think they're really stupid and fun.
Logan (03:54):
You shop in the men's and women's department?
V (03:57):
Yeah.
Logan (03:58):
Would you say that there is a difference in graphic tees being sold?
V (04:02):
Oh yeah. Most of my graphic tees are from the men's section. The shirt I'm wearing right now is from
the men's section and it wasn't in the women's section and it's better than the shirts in the women's
section. So, yeah.
Logan (04:16):
Can you describe some examples of some graphic tees you found in the women's section?
V (04:21):
It's stupid. It's flowers. It's always flowers and patterns. And if it's movie t-shirts it's Disney shirts, which,
yeah, I'm all for Disney but also Disney is boring and I don't really like Disney.
Logan (04:35):
You said that the women's clothing has a lot of florals and patterns. Have you noticed that there's a
difference in the men's section?
V (04:41):
Yeah. I mean, it's obviously a stereotype that's overrepresented, but there's not really any florals in
men's clothing for the most part. And when it is, it's like the hipster, like denim with flowers
embroidered on it, which is not really my thing.
Logan (04:55):
Do you see patterns in men's clothing?
V (04:57):
Men's I feel like it's usually more solid colored, so it's a lot more simple, which is sometimes better or
worse. But, yeah.
Logan (05:05):
Would you say that you gravitate more towards patterned or simple clothing?
V (05:10):
I would say I gravitate more towards patterns, but not necessarily those that are in the commercial
women's section.
Logan (05:17):
Because they are traditionally feminine or because they're just not to your style?
V (05:20):
Both. Traditionally feminine isn't necessarily in my style.
Logan (05:24):
Okay. How do you see masculinity presented in fashion?
V (05:27):
Angular, which is a very odd description, I guess. But all the cuts are very square, whereas women's
fashion is cut very, I don't know, round in a way, which is limiting because I think people that are
generally more masculine and wanting to shop in the women's clothing department would find that it
wouldn't fit right. I kind of like shopping in the men's section because more angular cut clothing, I don't
know, I just like it more.
Logan (05:54):
How do you see femininity presented in fashion?
V (05:57):
Traditional feminine attributes are very, like I said before, round and tame. And a lot of new things don't
come out of women's fashion, which seems on brand for traditional femininity.
Logan (06:11):
So you would say that women's fashion is traditional?
V (06:14):
Not always, but yeah, sometimes.
Logan (06:17):
Not always like, would you say it's more traditional than masculine clothing?
V (06:22):
I think it's more traditional than masculine clothing, but not by a lot. I think they're both pretty bound
into traditional clothing beliefs. Yeah.
Logan (06:31):
And you're saying that like by shape?
V (06:33):
By shape, chiefly.
Logan (06:35):
And by style choice, would you say that they're also very traditional?
V (06:40):
Mostly. Yeah.
Logan (06:41):
Does separating the stores, the retail fashion stores by gender, is it more convenient for you to shop
with?
V (06:47):
I think it's more convenient because personally I like shopping in the women's section for certain things
and the men's section for other things. As I was saying before, I like wearing dresses but I also want
graphic tees. So it's a convenient way to organize the stores. But again, as I said before, it's convenience.
So if there was a graphic tees section and a dresses section, that would be just the same to me. So in a
way it's not useful.
Logan (07:10):
So do you think it's a problem of organizing the stores by gender or do you think it's a problem of what is
in those sections? Because I know that you've mentioned that there is a lack of diversity when it comes
to graphic tees in the women's section, do you think if they put more of a diversity in graphic tees in the
women's section that it would be okay to divide the stories by gender?
V (07:32):
Yeah. I think if more diversity was in both sections, it would be more okay. But then definitely people
that are more gender nonconforming would still feel unrepresented by it. For me personally, it would be
the same if there was more diversity in both sections.
Logan (07:44):
If a company produced a line of hoodies, graphic, tees and sweatpants and said, "We produced a line of
gender neutral clothing," how would you see that?
V (07:52):
I think that would be good. I also think hoodies and sweatpants for me are boring clothes that I don't
want to wear.
Logan (07:59):
Right. So would you say that clothes like that when companies define gender neutrality in that way are
limiting to people who are gender nonconforming?
V (08:09):
I think that when androgyny is defined as basic clothing that featureless, it's sweats. That's very limiting
you could say because it puts gender neutrality into this one box of fashion, which is like sweats, which
it isn't.
Logan (08:29):
Do you think that companies owe their consumers a line that is not boring, but is still androgynous?
V (08:39):
For sure.
Logan (08:40):
Do you say that gender neutrality and androgyny are the same thing?
V (08:45):
In fashion, yes.
Logan (08:47):
So if stores wanted to be more gender inclusive, do you think that having an androgynous line of fashion
would help them?
V (08:54):
Yeah.
Logan (08:55):
Do you think it's easier to have three sections, like a women's, gender neutral and men's section?
V (09:02):
It would probably be pretty convenient, again, to have three sections. But in an ideal world, maybe have
no sections. That would be the most inclusive.
Logan (09:10):
Would you say that the current system is bad?
V (09:13):
I think that it's not really hurting anybody. People are able to reach the fashion they want to reach. It
might just be a little more difficult fitting wise. But I think it might be beneficial to have less of those
sections, even if it's not actively hurting anyone to have them.
Logan (09:30):
If a store was like separated by feminine clothes, masculine clothes, and then they put gender neutral
clothes in the back, would you think that would be helpful or harmful rather than doing nothing?
V (09:39):
That would be kind of weird and non-inclusive. I would say, if you really want to keep that women's
men's divide, which it is because that's the way retail fashion is set up and you can't really change that
without taking down the whole system, but I would say keep the women's and men's divide. And then
within each section have some sort of gender neutral line, which would be more like this fit is somewhat
more feminine or somewhat more masculine but we think of it as more androgynous. The prints are
different or whatever, so then people can go between both sections but there's still that androgynous
option.
Logan (10:13):
Do you think it would be more helpful if you just eliminated the gender neutral option altogether
because the system you said already works and just instead make both sections more diverse in terms of
their masculinity and femininity?
V (10:29):
Yeah, because it already works. And like I was saying before, people can move between the two
sections. And if they were more diverse, then people would be able to access all of these clothes in their
size and something that would fit their body.
Logan (10:44):
Do you have any opinions on companies that claim to be environmentally friendly?
V (10:49):
Generally don't believe it because the system of fast fashion is bad.
Logan (10:55):
Would you say that not having clothes that are diverse contributes to fast fashion?
V (11:01):
Yes. Because it lends people to buy more clothes to try to find something that fits their body, which the
nature of buying more clothes and needing more things is hurting the environment.
Logan (11:14):
Okay. I think that's it. Thank you for the interview.
V (11:15):
Awesome. Thank you so much.